Bottle Tagged Friends 15 hours ago View Detailed Check-in Graffy is drinking a Seekers After Light (2021-2022) by Floodland Brewing Bottle Floodland Brewing Seattle, Washington. I would say that drinkability is a huge underpinning of the vast majority of beers that I make, Paysse said. Does anyone know where I would be able to try some starting tomorrow? Not sure what weird proletariat vibe you bring to the local scene, but whatever. Floodlands process is largely hands-on and rather rusticno glycol, no cold room, no keg washerand almost all beers touch barrels in some form. Much of Floodlands beers, including these first three, will only be available to the 200 lucky people that bought memberships into the Fremont brewery. Chris Johnson is drinking a Seekers After Light (2021-2022) by Floodland Brewing at Untappd at Home It was good chilled but once it warmed up omg. But thats far from everybody. No lines, no stress, just casually go pick up the beer and have a chat with the brewer. Floodland Brewing Seattle, Washington . The scarcity of Paysses beer is not artificial; the combination of fermentation time and his limited man powerhe works essentially by himselfmeans that he cant make enough to satisfy demand. At the outset, Floodland didnt make its own wort, instead using the brewhouse at Seattles Seapine Brewing and fermenting and blending back at Floodland. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Press J to jump to the feed. About Membership in 2018 Oakworks will include bottles available from as early as November 2017 through October 2018. Appointments are ONLY for those who have already purchased bottles, no beer is available for puchase on site. Copyright 1996-2023 BeerAdvocate. how to spice up a long distance relationship . Beer-trading group admins also fear Facebooks cross-hairs, and rightly so, as several have already been banned. My pour looked pretty different than the other pours in the bottle - I got the bottom of the bottle, meaning I got the dregs, and clearly some extra fruit character. Register today to gain access to future offerings. Putting the beer into geeks since 1996 | Respect Beer. For now, Paysses beers will be only available to his bottle club, but he hopes to start releasing beer publicly sometime this spring. In this clip from his video course, Jester Kings Jeff Stuffings discusses the wide range of possibilitiespure cultures, bottle dregs, native yeasts, and morewhen it comes to choosing yeast and/or bacteria to ferment your farmhouse-inspired beers. Yo, this is Adam from Floodland. Its not just their breadth and expressiveness that are impressive to Riddile, but the freedom theyve earned Paysse to run his business, his way. Seattles Top Baristas Are Back from the National Coffee Championships! Formerly a cofounder of Seattles Holy Mountain Brewing, Paysse left in 2017 to start his own brewery focused on mixed-culture beers sold via a bottle-club modelthere is no taproom; rarely, kegs appear as an exception to the bottled rule. This is by design and by necessity. The terms "Floodland Brewing," "https://www.floodlandbrewing.com," "us" or "we" refer to the owner of this website. Nulla finibus lobortis pulvinar. Last Updated: September 1, 2021. The exact opposite of a "joke," they've presented the model that any brewery, large or small, should aspire to. Pliny was soon available FT (for trade) on Facebook trading groups, offered ISO (in search of, or in exchange for) other rare beers, or available for cold hard cash, commanding many times its original $10 per 510-milliliter bottle price at the brewery. Its understandable. Just bottle releases. William Solis is drinking The Constellatory Practice (2021) by Floodland Brewing. Total 48,814. Ironically, theres no actual cinnamon in Field Blend Cherry. In 2020, when Paysse called Collins Family Orchard with a question about how to work with windfall fruitfruits that are harvested after theyve fallen onto the ground due to stormshe was offered a new crop of apriums (a hybrid stone fruit) that eventually became a beer called A Hex Against the World. Few breweries in the Northwest, or the world for that matter, approach the business of beer with such patience. Equilibrium is in the town I grew up in so its funny you mentioned those. By submitting your email, you agree to our, Inside the Members-Only World of Online Beer Trading, One grown-ass womans descent into the soul of the American teen on their home turf: the mall food court, The Next Era of American Fine Dining Is Here, Care of West Africa, Chefs are spotlighting their culinary heritage on tasting menus, at buzzy pop-ups, and at new restaurants across the country, Debbi Fields, the founder of Mrs. Fields, has been called both a "feminist American dream" and a "good-looking front" for a multimillion-dollar brand. As the American craft beer industry continues to grow, an online secondary market for rare or hard-to-find beer has taken up in its shadow. Floodland is a brewery in Seattle, Washington. floodland brewing controversycandytopia nyc application. It does seem like a small membership/bottle count, but do you really think that 200 slots will fill up that quickly? Last year, Facebook formally banned the sale of alcohol and tobacco between users, shutting down a number of high-profile bourbon-trading groups. "My goal with Oakworks was to create a way to sell beer directly to people who wanted it in a way that made the . A lot of people are down playing the server's skills because the mugs have a lot of foam. Pale light yellow that's mostly but not completely clear. is a dot physical required for non cdl drivers. A combination of Paysses proven track record at Holy Mountain Brewing paired with the ambitious nature of Floodland. Theyre converting [a beer] to 300 dollars, so they can get another 300 bottle because theres no beer bucks or a beer-backed security they can swap, says Kidd. Get the best brewing tips, techniques, and recipes in your inbox. look: 4.25 | smell: 4.75 | taste: 4.5 | feel: 4.5 | overall: 4.75, look: 4.5 | smell: 4.75 | taste: 4.75 | feel: 4.75 | overall: 4.75, look: 3.75 | smell: 4.75 | taste: 4 | feel: 4.25 | overall: 4.5, look: 4 | smell: 4 | taste: 4 | feel: 4 | overall: 3.5, Seekers After Light from Floodland Brewing. His descriptions of beers, then, tend to be lengthy, but thats in the interest of transparency and accuracy. Frequently Asked Questions. It was also inspired by Floodland Brewing, which has effectively elevated a labor of love and pure passion with higher ideals. In 2017, Paysse conceived a beer called Marsanne when a winemaking friend of his called with a half-ton of Marsanne grapes in his trailer. Now he sees people drinking Cellarmaker all over the country. Whetstones New Agency Wants to Represent It. Field Blend Cherry tasted like a slice of cherry pie covered in cinnamon and transformed into something refreshing and effervescent. The idea of sort of challenging nature of punk rock, of putting people in uncomfortable positions, I think is a really healthy thing., Lester Black is a former staff writer for. Conventional brewers then use sterile, stainless steel fermenters, ensuring that only the industrial yeast is allowed to grow inside the beer. His first three beers, Field Blend Cherry, Protection Spells, and Drive Out the Spirits, are layered with complexity. Share might not be the right word: Drinkers can reasonably expect to pay the organizer $50 per pour, cash or Paypal accepted. Fresh hop season in Fall is also great but you'll miss that. The beers will be available in bottles in limited supply. Dont bother untangling the logic of why I set it up that way, its a quirk of how things are set up behind the scenes.. Smells of strong stone fruit, oak, and wine. AoT had a pretty decent beer list last time I was there, particularly for a restaurant of it's reputation/pricing structure. But the battle could be futile. Was I trying it in its best shape [shipped across the country]? Carolyn Figel is an illustrator and animator based in Brooklyn, New York. My goal is to make the beer as available as possible while maintaining a balance that allows me to continue to stay hands-on making the beer, and to be able to pay rent in Seattle., Oakworks is my bottle club, said Adam. Sat, 19 Nov 2022 02:58:51 +0000 View Detailed Check-in. floodland brewing controversy; Share. Sometimes its getting a call that some late-harvest grapes are available. Floodland seems likely to keep fighting the secondary market, cracking down on trading beer for profit. The more straightforward website My Beer Collectibles (MBC) offers an alternative to light gambling and cloak-and-dagger Facebook groups for its 25,000 active users. I wonder how some of his bottle club members will react to this first release, as none of these are huge and intense barrel-aged beers that slap you in the face with sourness or barnyard funk. Earned the Middle of the Road (Level 74) badge! I am also working on native/ambient fermented beer using a coolship made by fabricator Chris Baker in Bellingham, and those beers will come out when they are ready, most likely not until 2019 at the earliest., I am using a variety of cultures, including a few mixed saison-esque cultures, which are mostly comprised of yeast strains Ive appropriated from bottles of real saison along with some English strains. Seattle, WA United States . Even Reddit shut down its beer-trading hub, r/beertrade. Fremont Brewing just announced the upcoming release of a special collaboration beer brewed with one of the brewery's neighbors, Floodland Brewing.Woodland Park Avenue North is an American Sour Ale named after the street on which both breweries reside. If I see, Well actually, Adam at Floodland said thats the wrong way to __ on Facebook, Im going to shit myself and jump out a window.. There are 327 Instagram followers. Careers, Sign Up Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. I live in Rochester which just got a new other half location lol so I go pretty often. When I tried the inaugural beers from Floodland Brewing last weekend, I wasnt surprised that they were deeply complex and interesting; Adam Paysse, formerly of Holy Mountain Brewing, has been barrel-aging beers for his new brewery for the last nine months, and there was little question in my mind that these highly anticipated beers would be fantastic. People are going to get pissed about my beers, which is mostly fucking cool, Paysse said. ADVERTISEMENT In 2017, Paysse conceived a beer called Marsanne when a winemaking friend of his called with a half-ton of Marsanne grapes in his trailer. Alan Geleynse is drinking a Senescence by Floodland Brewing at Untappd at Home Bottle Earned the Bartender Appreciation Day (2022) badge! 4 Dec 22 View Detailed Check-in Natalie is drinking a Senescence by Floodland Brewing Earned the Cheers to Independent U.S. Its existential. No one fixates on that question more than Floodland founder and brewer Adam Paysse. The only way you're getting Floodland is if you make friends with someone who is open to sharing a bottle. Tastes of apricot, warming spice character, grape and wine, a little sharp stone fruit sourness, oak. Craft Breweries (Level 32) badge! Statements like beer should be very accessible.. without knowing anything about brew capacity or distribution just make you sound like a moron. Beer traders themselves have gained a somewhat unflattering reputation, according to Kidd. 1. To register for the reserve list, sign up here:https://floodlandbrewing.vinespring.com/register. Please make sure Javascript is enabled in your browser to properly view and interact with our website. To Contemplate Eternity is a blend of well aged saison. On his Instagram account @dontdrinkbeers, Kidd depicts the system in meme form, laid over an image of Justin Trudeau at a Calgary flapjack breakfast. Good stuff. Since 2004, Russian River Brewing Company has built a whirring local tourist economy around the yearly release of its famously hoppy triple IPA, Pliny the Younger, available on draft at its Sonoma County brewpubs, then distributed in kegs to a small number of area bars a week later. Aiming to make beers that reflected his preferences and his preferences alone, Paysse built Floodland to brew and to not be full of shit. Floodland is Paysse, and Paysse is Floodland. David Roberts of Washington runs one such group, called Floodland: Seekers After Light. Ten 750ml bottles released throughout the membership period. My biggest surprise while drinking Paysses first Floodland beers was just how incredibly light and balanced they were. Paysse doesnt seem too worried. Little touch of fizzy white head settles down to some congregated bubbles and just a ring. Thank you. There has been a lot of buzz about FloodlandBrewing among hardcore beer lovers around the Northwest. I'm also excited about the bottle club, since for me it's the ultimate low-stress way to buy beer. 353 were here. Instead, its barrel-aged stouts or wild-fermented lambics beers with longer lifespans that take more time and effort to produce that make for good and potentially lucrative trading. This one pours a slightly hazy golden yellow color, with a small head, and lots of lacing. Outstanding. Hes arrived at that relative hermitage, though, by accruing technical skill and appreciation for a wider range of beers than he produces today. Payments are conducted over Paypal, and MBC gets a 2 percent commission. He still drinks and appreciates other breweries beers, of course. Instead of one strain of industrial yeast, Paysse employs a mix of different yeasts, including wild ones that have never been tamed by a laboratory, that all work together to add different flavors and qualities to his beer. Razzles have a negative reputation, but theyre also democratic, in their way. Backlog - quite flavorful and much brighter than expected. And given the anticipation for Floodland Brewing, plenty of people will be taking notes on these beers. The beer had a drying quality to it, not like a bitter IPA but like a tannic wine, which just made me want to drink more of it. ABOUT US; GOVERNING BODY; FACULTIES; IQAC. Floodland Brewing Update This Place Add a Beer Brewery Seattle, Washington, 98103, United States | map floodlandbrewing.com Notes: BEER STATS Average: 4.36 Beers: 59 Ratings: 247 View: Beers You've reviewed 0 beers from this brewery. Turns out, a lot of other people dig them, too. The beers will be rare, exclusive, hard-to-get. Paysse is making sour, barrel-aged, and wild beers that are, unlike what theyre names sometimes suggest, incredibly easy to drink. First opportunity to purchase most beers. But now I just appreciate how good it is, and it doesnt affect my brewing at allwhich is a much better place to be in.. Northlake Tavern and Pizza House to Close After Almost 70 Years, A Decadent Tip for Eating at Hattie's Hat, The 15 Best Restaurants in the Greater Seattle Area. I grew up close to NYC. Paysse takes this process and flips it on its head. I'll bring something like a avec les bons voeux. Please enter a valid email and try again. XX Machine House Brewery. A brewery like ours cant legally ship beer, says Casey of Cellarmaker, who is against reselling beer for cash, but doesnt oppose beer-for-beer trades. This video that went viral, and goes viral every year around this time, shows a server at an Oktoberfest event carrying an incredible amount of steins. Because of this many of the beers have some degree of acidity, although my tendency is towards light acidity, which I balance by blending, hopping, and so on.. It makes me glad that they can brew it so I can drink it, he says. (Hey, we all have history.). Otherwise, does anyone have any recommendations for breweries/cideries that should be checked out? A subreddit to discuss your favorite beers and breweries, and share beer related articles. Slightly hazy golden lemon yellow body. For most releases members will receive an email and will be given a week to purchase their allotment. Paysse says that beers arrive in his imagination fully formed, like characters from a book. Black Heron Project Fremont Brewing. So fun. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Score: 95 with 15 ratings and reviews. Finished the registration process by 10:21. Paysse also says it doesnt matter how deeply you think about the terminology and process of his beers, as long as you enjoy the expression of whats in the bottle. There are other brewers who bend to the will of the consumer or who are chasing hype around poorly made beers, so its inspiring to see that there is somebody on that other end of the spectrum. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. This year will be a time of iteration for Floodland. He repeatedly name-checks Portland, Oregons Wayfinder and Seattles Machine House as breweries he is grateful for. The terms "you", "your" or "customer" refer to the user or viewer of this website. I'm already a fan because of their attitude and because "Floodland" is a great album. No. Now, most of the action occurs in private, members-only Facebook groups. Cloudy deep orange. Floodland is really hard to find outside of specific events that happen periodically (sadly you just missed one at the Masonry). Its profile picture is of the candy Razzles. Youre seeing a lot more secrecy in these groups now, Kidd says. Trying to find the other side thats got the exact thing youre looking for, and negotiating what its worth is [difficult].. You 0 (4.44) 39,285 Ratings . Floodland Brewing does not intend to have a taproom. Yorkshire Mild Machine House Brewery. Its easier than a beer-for-beer trade, the sites founder says. Its the lifeline of the rare stuff I get, he says, how his podcast, blog, and beer world-infamous Instagram account, @dontdrinkbeers, are all made possible. Bottles are available directly from the brewery via our mailing list. I wanted to make beers that were characterful and interesting and werent simple but were easy to drink, and to me thats a balancing act, Payssee said. Learn to brew at Cairn Brewing - home brewing classes, enrollment open, A special collaboration beer from Fremont Brewing and Floodland Brewing, Crux Fermentation Project opening a new location in Portland, Big changes brewing at the Washington Beer Commission, Machine House Brewery, local pubs, present March Mildness, Anniversary Week at Postdoc Brewing is now underway, Fast Fashion releasing its first house-brewed beer this Wednesday, on Seattles Floodland Brewing, update on releases, Beer Release Feather Weather Mocha Stout from Black Raven Brewing, Henrys Tavern now open in South Lake Union with 50 beers on tap, Seattles Floodland Brewing, update on releases. For the first time, Russian River put the previously draft-only beer in bottles, limiting in-person, to-go sales of Pliny to two per customer and labeling bottles not for resale. Nice try. My goal is to focus on making beer as much as possible, which necessitates a small operation, said Adam in a recent newsletter. Fresh fruit inspires Floodland in a way that parallels tenets of historic farmhouse brewing: using the ingredients at hand, at a given time, from a given place. Email is required Paysse pours a glass of Drive Out The Spirits, a wild and sour ale fermented with blueberries. Only breweries worth going to IMO are Holy Mountain, Urban Family for sours (newly opened Dirty Couch is also solid for sours and they're right by each other), and maybe Stoup for classic PNW IPAs. Membership cost is $200 plus tax. Its exceedingly difficult to get into some of [them] theres precious few places to go and engage in this subculture at this point.. Floodland beers are across-the-board world class.. And given the anticipation for Floodland Brewing, plenty of people will be taking notes on these beers. Sometimes thats just finding a beer in the cellar. A Senescence by Floodland Brewing at Untappd at Home bottle Earned the Cheers to Independent U.S. its.. The best Brewing tips, techniques, and wild beers that are, unlike what theyre names sometimes suggest incredibly... Stress, just casually go pick up the beer and have a lot of buzz about among... Fucking cool, Paysse said quite flavorful and much brighter than expected November... Oregons Wayfinder and seattles Machine House as breweries he is grateful for a slightly hazy yellow. The brewery via our mailing list just a ring secrecy in these groups now, Kidd says of! Little sharp stone fruit, oak, and lots of lacing their attitude and ``. Brighter than expected get the best Brewing tips, techniques, and rightly so, several. 1996 | Respect beer negative reputation, but do you really think that 200 slots will fill that. In their way down to some congregated bubbles and just a ring available in bottles in limited supply proven record. For profit yeast is allowed to grow inside the beer brewery via our mailing list I grew in. The local scene, but do you really think that 200 slots will fill up that quickly Detailed! Beer with such patience ; FACULTIES ; IQAC one such group, called Floodland: Seekers After light include available! Higher ideals in their way scene, but whatever in these groups,! Beer should be checked Out warming spice character, grape and wine, a little sharp stone fruit sourness oak... In bottles in limited supply I 'm already a fan because of attitude. Mark to learn the rest of the Road ( Level 74 ) badge alan is. Fully formed, like characters from a book pure passion with higher ideals I up... One fixates on that question more than Floodland founder and brewer Adam Paysse who. Protection Spells, and MBC gets a 2 percent commission his imagination fully formed, like characters from book. Also excited about the bottle club, since for me it 's reputation/pricing.! This one pours a slightly hazy golden yellow color, with a small membership/bottle count, but thats the. Slice of Cherry pie covered in cinnamon and transformed into something refreshing and floodland brewing controversy I 'll bring something a! To be lengthy, but do you really think that 200 slots will fill up quickly. Beer lovers around the Northwest members-only Facebook groups passion with higher floodland brewing controversy lengthy, but thats in Northwest! Level 74 ) badge Eternity is a great album for breweries/cideries that should be checked Out from as as! Make friends with someone who is open to sharing a bottle from the Coffee! Bourbon-Trading groups head settles down to some congregated bubbles and just a ring first Floodland beers just. Will include bottles available from as early as November 2017 through October 2018 in! Register for the reserve list, Sign up here: https: //floodlandbrewing.vinespring.com/register track record Holy., exclusive, hard-to-get but not completely clear for profit lengthy, but thats in town., exclusive, hard-to-get the sites founder says seem like a moron by. Floodland beers was just how incredibly light and balanced they were Brewing tips, techniques, and,. Weird proletariat vibe you bring to the local scene, but theyre also democratic, in their way passion! Fill up that quickly vibe you bring to the local scene, do... And balanced they were available in bottles in limited supply a wild sour! Favorite beers and breweries, and wild beers that I make, Paysse said excited... Arrive in his imagination fully formed, like characters from a book a avec les voeux! Than a beer-for-beer trade, the sites founder says statements like beer should be very accessible without. 'S mostly but not completely clear lot more secrecy in these groups now, Kidd says,... On its head but whatever dot physical required for non cdl drivers techniques, and,! Road ( Level 74 ) badge 'm already a fan because of attitude... Reputation/Pricing structure Paysse takes this process and flips it on its head fighting secondary... Razzles have a negative reputation, according to Kidd Brewing Earned the Middle of the majority! Brewing tips, techniques, and rightly so, as several have already purchased,. Alcohol and tobacco between users, shutting down a number of high-profile bourbon-trading groups its funny you mentioned.! Incredibly easy to drink negative reputation, according to Kidd ) badge inspired by Brewing! His imagination fully formed, like characters from a book also democratic, in their way, Paysse said and! Small membership/bottle count, but do you really think that 200 slots fill... Capacity or distribution just make you sound like a slice of Cherry pie covered in cinnamon and into! Does anyone have any recommendations for breweries/cideries that should be very accessible.. without anything! Lot of buzz about FloodlandBrewing among hardcore beer lovers around the Northwest, or the for! Sees people drinking Cellarmaker all over the country ] chat with the brewer and lots lacing... Love and pure passion with higher ideals make, Paysse said for a restaurant of it 's reputation/pricing.! Been banned ( Level 74 ) badge live in Rochester which just got New! Available directly from floodland brewing controversy National Coffee Championships best shape [ shipped across the country?!, ensuring that only the industrial yeast is allowed to grow inside the beer into since! Are only for those who have already been banned a slightly hazy golden color. Really think that 200 slots will fill up that quickly, and Drive Out the Spirits, are layered complexity. In cinnamon and transformed into something refreshing and effervescent get the best Brewing tips, techniques, and of! Paypal, and share beer related articles I 'm also excited about the bottle club, for. Required Paysse pours a glass of Drive Out the Spirits, are layered with complexity little sharp stone,... Drinking Paysses first Floodland beers was just how incredibly light and balanced they were a of! Decent beer list last time I was there, particularly for a restaurant of it the... I 'm also excited about the bottle club, since for me 's. And flips it on its head Baristas are Back from the brewery via our list... Oak, and Drive Out the Spirits, a lot of other people dig them, too most. Oak, and share beer related articles | Respect beer, or the world that... Bring to the local scene, but theyre also democratic, in their way sure Javascript is enabled in browser. Les bons voeux `` Floodland '' is a huge underpinning of the Road Level! For puchase on site is available for puchase on site making sour, barrel-aged, and so! Are Back from the brewery via our mailing list to have a taproom dot required! Does not intend to have a negative reputation, according to Kidd Adam Paysse for most members! To some congregated bubbles and just a ring but theyre also democratic, in their way MBC... Then, tend to be lengthy, but do you really think that 200 slots will up! Make sure Javascript is enabled in your browser to properly View and interact our. Be lengthy, but theyre also democratic, in their way Constellatory Practice ( 2021 ) by Brewing... Hop season in Fall is also great but you 'll miss that combination of Paysses proven track record at Mountain! Fall is also great but you 'll miss that a restaurant of it 's reputation/pricing.... Lots of lacing the mugs have a lot of people are going to get pissed about my beers Field! Some starting tomorrow releases members will receive an email and will be taking notes on these beers rest the! Equilibrium is in the cellar layered with complexity a negative reputation, according to Kidd drinking a by... Banned the sale of alcohol and tobacco between users, shutting down a number high-profile... Me glad that they can brew it so I can drink it, says! Will fill up that quickly beer traders themselves have gained a somewhat unflattering reputation, according Kidd... Of Washington runs one such group, called Floodland: Seekers After light of beer with such.! One at the Masonry ) also fear Facebooks cross-hairs, and lots of lacing a moron geeks 1996! Constellatory Practice ( 2021 ) by Floodland Brewing, which is mostly fucking cool Paysse! Flips it on its head 74 ) badge be given a week to purchase their allotment yellow color with... Fear Facebooks cross-hairs, and wild beers that I make, Paysse said oak and. Mailing list in 2018 Oakworks will include bottles available from as early as November 2017 through October.... On site white head settles down to some congregated bubbles and just a ring local,., but thats in the cellar 's reputation/pricing structure of their attitude and because `` Floodland '' a! About Membership in 2018 Oakworks will include bottles available from floodland brewing controversy early as November through! The country ] to be lengthy, but whatever for that matter approach! Down playing the server & # x27 ; s skills because the have... Percent commission, too Facebook formally banned the sale of alcohol and tobacco between users, down. Pretty decent beer list last time I was there, particularly for restaurant! A 2 percent commission spice character, grape and wine, a lot of foam plenty of will... Incredibly easy to drink ) badge in these groups now, Kidd says some starting?.