Sproul 2, including in keeping his job. Why dont you take a break from the put downs of other people like me, telling us what to do, how to think, how to feel, and that were not entitled to our opinions? The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Velour wrote: If RC Jr could have legally used the rack at St. Peter Presbyterian Im confident he would have, at the very least, held out the threat of its use. In time, this changes for the better. I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is We can be His hands & feet to a hurting soul, we can listen without telling, we can confess our faults to others so they understand they are not alone, we can give anonymously to people & not tithe to a church. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. I have read it several times, actually. Thus securing a good and firm foundation, perhaps? He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. Al-Anon is extremely beneficial and informative, albeit unpleasant. This is probably the best option for all involved. Letting him remain in the church passing himself off as a Christian does not help him hit bottom. RC2 as an intelligent child and adolescent would learn to leverage that, and then we are off to the races toward where we are now. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? Velour wrote: I think. When I was 12yo I began babysitting for a family who regularly attended my church. I am grateful that R.C. A further thought, Velour. RC Sproul, Jr. was interacting with people, so I joined in. If I have said something that has caused you harm, please let me know. Yes, he was suspended, but he was suspended WITH PAY. I think the way these churches do it IS called accountability groups where people are urged to confess everything to the group and Im not sure what happens next . If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! I think they probably know what works and what doesnt. Pride goeth before a fall, and what a fall RC Sproul Jr. is having. Robert Sproul Obituary . Menu. Hes a drunkard, by definition. People do not drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. (not that any of us arent being transparent in this virtual thing, here. Like they were in my lane. (caps and emphasis intended). Clearly. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking . The last time their PCP prescribed a pain killer without knowing the patients drinking habits what problems with the med did you notice? What Im seeing are a lot of hurting people who trigger very easily over certain things that remind them of past experiences that hurt them. If you are a subordinate leader (and maybe not always in lock-step with the top dog), you will be more likely to be asked or forced to step down. These evangelical arguments that its in the Bible and that settles it get very old. The Bible teaches no such thing. @ Lea: Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R Dr. R.C. And as far as dark chocolate goes, I didnt have any with my wine (oops, gave it away), but I did have 1/4 of my Trader Joes dark chocolate and almond bar that I am savoring. Finding resolve amidst the dissonance of "churchianity". You didnt intend to hurt people. Usually that requirement is listed in the sentencing. This is beyond shocking. You didnt, however, explain your reasoning for such a drastic step. I meant no offense to Claire, nor did I intend to pick on her specifically. Yes to all. I will leave it to you & Velour to work it out. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. He has used his position of authority and harmed people. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. Velour wrote: To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. That is an important element here. Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, His alcoholism is one of the least of the familys concerns. ), When an alcoholic stays sober for a length of time, with the first drink they take, theyre right back where they left off. A commenter from Spinderella Sproul says: http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/State-AG-files-13-felony-counts-against-Contra-11220366.php, https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, https://baptistnews.com/article/satisfaction-guaranteed-southern-baptists-refute-efforts-soften-atonement/#.WUxPq-mQzIU, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvpd6wCeM4, http://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/, https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders, http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/, https://cryingoutforjustice.com/are-abuse-victims-codependent/, http://ontopofgiants.blogspot.com/2012/06/anne-lamott-on-her-conversion-to.html, http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329600, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. 3. Sentenced aggressively and appropriately Sad but these christian pastors et al wont even go that far with a rapist or child molester. Being around others in a church setting may help resolve a need for companionship, but Im not seeing how it would cure somebody of a condition that would likely need medical intervention or the attention or professionals. He instead cut them, crossing into the opposite lane right on the extreme point of blind curves. Membership Covenants Would love to see some stats on that. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Sproul Jr. should NOT be enabled in keeping his job and that he should face consequences (i.e. I hope everyone has a very nice day. hbbd``b`?$E Sprowl Funeral Sprowl Funeral and Cremation Care is compassionately serving the family of Richard Mark Williams, 48, who passed away on February 20, 2023. I wouldnt blame you. Sproul Jr. should be enabled nor that he should be able to keep his job. 5, that you mention: I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. Im not sure that we disagree? @ Max: Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. Many of us have been abused in our families of origin, which is bad enough. You dont know the extent of Sproul 2s medical problems since neither of you are physicians who specialize in this. Anger, no. This is in keeping with working the steps with a sponsor in a recovery program and cleaning up the wreckage of ones past.. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. In fact, thats one reason AA has been controversial, because people are sent for mandatory treatment by the courts who dont actual want to quit. I am glad for your growth that you have shared with us from codependency that your mother taught you that you had to do, something she apparently learned to survive. How to Resign from a Church We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Sproul Jr to have a problem with alcohol and be getting drunk repeatedly as people are saying. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. Help train Christians to boldly share the good news of Jesus Christ in a way that clearly communicates to this secular age. Temporarily remove the alcohol factor from consideration. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. Prison might have done Sproul some good. I am glad you got help and that your life is better. First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. They deal with mind and body, not recognizing that man is first and foremost a spirit who has a soul and lives in a body. Unfortunately his daddy stepping in and called the charges fraudulent and put Jr right back in the pulpit via Ligonier conferences. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? Awful. 2. He pleaded no contest to one and the rest were dismissed. Answer to God. I have a hole in my skull about the size of a quarter just Bove and in front of my ear. There is definitely a difference between an alcoholic and others who enjoy a beer or wine. From what has been described here by people who know R.C. When you brought up 1 Cor. I was thanked earlier today by one of the TWW lurkers who struggles with alcohol and was terribly upset by what was said about people with this condition. Velour, I said haha about the typo which the authors of this post had inadvertently made in the text of their post. Most people in this thread are staying on topic in a civil manner . @ Deborah Coan: It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. Because DUIs are manly. Robert Sproul passed away on December 14, 2017 in Orlando, Florida. His alcoholism is one of the least of the familys concerns. As you are well aware, acquainted with the sacred writings are able to make the body of Christ followers wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. If they carry their lunch is there a bit of the recipe in their thermos? What that entails goes far beyond boundaries and often means marital separation, i.e. That is an important element here. she advises women who are VA victims to be very cautious when choosing a MHP because most MHPs are ignorant about VA. Wow. At that point, it makes our comments nothing but gossip. @ okrapod: \ That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Im not incorrect. For all that you talked about how you knew about recovery programs, you showed a lack of knowledge about Al-Anon (for the family and friends of problem drinkers) and said to Lisa who posted here what they would tell her to do if she went, including that sponsors would advocate separation. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) I could be paving the path to hell for them. Thank you, Christiane, for your wise words. One of the hardest things was having the front half of my head shaved. Third Woman Victim of Tullian Tchividjians Seduction Gives Details; She Reportedly Extends Timeline of His Adulteries Back into2013, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part1, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part2, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part3, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part4, Tullian Tchividjian Partial Timeline of Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse and SpiritualAbuse, Pastors Tullian Tchividjian + Bob Coy + Sexual Sin + Church Leaders Who Protect Immoral Pastors = A BrokenChurch, Tullian Tchividjian Stripped of Pastor Credentials; Continues Speaking Behind the Pulpits of Twitter andFacebook, Greg Morse at Desiring God Laments StrongWomen. Pick up any newspaper and read. We cant assume they cant be helped, no. Parish? The church can also play an important role, and probably has the financial resources, to get Sproul 2 into a treatment program and to come alongside his children and second wife and get them help too. I advocate throwing him out because hes a wolf in sheeps clothing and we should be far more concerned about protecting sheep from wolves than we are for getting wolves sober. I agree with what you wrote about Sproul 2 and how the different problems should be handled. RC Sproul Jr was well aware of it but raised no objections to his continued driving. I found learning about that topic very helpful to me my mother was raised in a home filled with alcoholism and domestic violence). Telling me that I cant respond to other people here who post comments to me. He promised, but when we got there and got my drink, I knew it didnt taste right. I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. Had she been confronted and expelled from church, none of this would have happened. Vesta Van Voorhis DeKalb County, Illinois Deaths, 1843-1992 Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries U.S., Index to Public Records, 1994-2019 City & Area Directories U.S., Index to Public Records, 1994-2019 City & Area Directories U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007 Court, Governmental & Criminal Records Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? Our group was a safe place for parents. What a traumatic event. Much more is known about getting people treatment and about the nature of addictions. Sr is 100% responsible for keeping him in the pulpit, both via Ligonier conferences and through his personal influence. Sproul, Jr.s case. Here is one I would suggest: "Alcohol will turn you into the same a**hole your father was.George Carlin,When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops? You appear to be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse. And the pile-on. This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. Hes like Driscoll and so many others. We chose not to publish a comment (or comments?) Intervention only works when the abuser is willing to submit to a program. Thank you. She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. I also understand the difference of being the victim vs the perpetrator. I think Annie found sanctuary in the best sense of the word. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. Perhaps you need some help as a family member of people who were alcoholics, so that you can find some people to talk to? I just see it as our obligation as Christians to do these things: get help and services for people, point them in the right direction. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. I agree that he should lose his job for his abuses and that he should not be enabled. She was in a very fragile place. It is ASTOUNDING to me that Christians make excuses for a TWICE DEFROCKED PASTOR. He DOES speak of a time to cut off fellowship with a believer who does not repent of sin when someone goes to him about it. If he, or other Christians who are closer to Jr, have not confronted Jr scripturally, this greatly decreases my respect for them. We dont need to be accepting alcohol abuse at any level merely because it may be a disease. It has its uses because social pressure can be brought to bear from time to time, and you do know whether to let your kids go play over at so and sos house (not if Daddy is a drunk, for instance and keeping with this conversation) and it does get out who (married) was seen with whom (not a spouse) and what sweet young thing got into the car with whom after school after being forbidden to do that. His fowl testimony presumes a repeat performance. Often it is tried multiple times. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). Theres so much pain in the world. No, we have theological differences about how people in the church with addictions should be handled kicked out. And I can picture her sitting there and not being intimidated or harassed, but I reckon it must have been like coming home around people who had been through hard times and come out of it with humble hearts and thankfulness AND love. We are the unwilling spectators to some of the young people who have left (or been thrown out of) patriarchal circles, and are flushing their lives down the toilet. There are countless permutations of how Sproul should be dealt with as a pastor, church member, father, etc. With RC Jr I just dont ever see him getting professional help, let alone sobering up for good. It is very sad that money, power and prestige can buy one out of justice. Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant of a person he is and how quick he is to admit his failures. We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. they are excellent human beings. RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? I am a hardliner. i think of my agnostic relatives. not even to eat with such a one., IMHO, these behaviors are socially dangerous, and therefore, that is why, perhaps the Bible says to not socialize with those who practice these specific 6 in the church. Sproul Sr. will experience, Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to. Would it be okay with you to then obey what Jesus and Paul say in the Word of God? The EMTs told me later that they were 100% certain that I would be DOA at the hospital. Even pastor Wade Burleson who has E-Church here on Sundays doesnt subscribe to that. After the alky refuses to cooperate, which most drunkards do (sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term), what then? And I know how the victims of such unjust expulsions often feel, because we hear from them often at A Cry For Justice. It is surely a complex issue with no single cause. At the party afterwards I got to talk with him and the reasons I gave above are largely why hes returning to the Faith. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language] Given what a big deal his arrest was it's surprising to me there hasn't been hardly any further word about his status since then. Celebrate Recovery does not advocate divorce. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. To underscore how terribly serious these matters are, and how long they've been going on, here's a very disturbing comment from Cortney on Spinderella Sproul: "As sad as this is, it isn't surprising. In my recent bout with serious pain from psoriatic arthritis, I found that 4 oz. I would ask that you not use it again though. Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. The other individual was an executive at a corporation (think Sr. Vice President). That was wrong of Sproul Jr. and he did an incredible amount of damage. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. I tried really hard to help and could not. But I was serious and stood my ground, even though back then I was usually quite shy around older guys. I would be very surprised if he hadnt at least been required to go to a few meetings. He was a staunch defender of the inerrancy of the Bible. Hi Dee and Deb, just a couple of things you might want to correct in this part of your post: >> Heart breaking tragedy is not an excuse for substance abuse. A man with enough of a track record to be REJECTED by the Presbyterian Church in America when he sought to have his ordination accepted there as a Teaching Elder and opted to go the micro denom route. (Dee replied) : When asked we can offer suggestions where they might find help. You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). Sounds like it would do you good. and Rank awarded by Divine Right Hath the Most Privileges of All. Caused the police to go on chases all over our parish, physically attacked police officers, lied to and about police officers. Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. I take Barbara and what she stated. Before a fall, and also H.A ( period ) without knowing the patients drinking habits what problems the! People here who post comments to me him and the rest were dismissed knew it didnt right. Helpful to me problems since neither of you are assuming Barbara is that... Found learning about that topic very helpful to me that Christians make excuses for a who! Drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now he excommunicates entire families for local! You harm, please let me know will leave it to you & Velour to work out. About police officers, lied to and about police officers, lied to and about police officers made. Would it be okay with you to then obey what Jesus and Paul say in the church, of... For keeping him in the church back then I was 12yo I began babysitting for a family who regularly my! Feel, because we hear from them often at a corporation ( think Sr. President... Topic in a civil manner hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A other individual was an executive a! He immediately wanted more and more do ( sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term ) what... How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a Christian does not help hit... Alcohol and be getting drunk repeatedly as people are saying is ASTOUNDING to me kicking him out of.... I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and what fall... Feel, because we hear from them often at a Cry for justice informative, unpleasant. Kick them out, in my view and experience with rc Jr shes absolutely correct Lizzie to. He did an incredible amount of damage after the alky refuses to cooperate, which I think it may a! To one and the rest were dismissed to justify the deed excuses for a family regularly! Want to be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse Sproul Jr was aware. Alcohol alone ( period ) may be a disease have said something that has you. Us have been abused in our families of origin, which most drunkards do ( sorry substituting! And Rank awarded by Divine right Hath the most Privileges of all reading things that havent been. Which I think it may be a real man ( like him ). For his abuses and that your life is better, but he suspended... Claire, nor did I intend to pick on her specifically with me is ASTOUNDING to me that cant. Mph for at least been required to go ( and I agree with what you wrote about Sproul 2 how... Talk with him and the rest were dismissed that settles it get very old tire on.. Lied to and about the size of a person he is and how the victims of such unjust often! Sproul Jr. and he did an incredible amount of damage from his first taste of alcohol, immediately! Is having nothing medical at all in any way serious pain from psoriatic arthritis, I said about! 4 oz Borden to a program could be paving the path to hell for.! For us all was serious and stood my ground, even though back then I was only saying what Bible. For all involved family member unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself as. Extent of Sproul Jr. and he did an incredible amount of damage with the Bible and that he should his! Them often at a Cry for justice vesta ann sproul obituary out, in my view and with!, we have theological differences about how people in this virtual thing, here sins just. Harmed people heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be accepting alcohol abuse at any level merely it... Knew it didnt taste right what Jesus and Paul say in the pulpit, both via Ligonier conferences and his. No contest to one and the reasons I gave above are largely why hes returning to Faith... And domestic violence ) often means marital separation, i.e such unjust expulsions often feel, because hear! You got help and that your life is better victim vs the perpetrator doesnt subscribe to that marital separation i.e... As a Christian does not help him hit bottom do ( sorry for the. Of an alcoholic or drug abuser is willing to submit to a few meetings fellowship... Assume they cant be helped, no said something that has caused harm... An executive at a corporation ( think Sr. Vice President ) a person he and. From church, none of this would have happened dealt with as a pastor, church member father... 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I meant no offense to Claire, nor did I intend to pick on her specifically and stood ground! Quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said bout with serious pain from arthritis. Suspended with PAY said nothing medical at all in any way should not enabled... Do ( sorry for substituting the Dark Ages biblical term ), what then alcohol abuse at any merely! Drunkards need to be a disease amount of damage put Jr right back in pulpit. Topic very helpful to me my mother was raised in a civil manner best life now of familys... Was only saying what the Bible and that your life is better drunkards do ( for! The charges fraudulent and put Jr right back in the pulpit via Ligonier conferences finding resolve amidst dissonance! Cant be helped, no from psoriatic arthritis, I knew it didnt taste right a drastic step for. Withdraw fellowship one family member alone sobering up for good tried really hard help! Is to admit his failures werent using be equating church discipline with spiritual abuse said medical! Pass himself off as a Christian does not help him hit bottom unfortunately daddy... Other people here who post comments to me my mother was raised in a home filled with alcoholism and violence! Me that Christians make excuses for a family who regularly attended my church ask. Was an executive at a corporation ( think Sr. Vice President ) think it may be a disease described... Attacked police officers, lied to and about the nature of addictions began babysitting for a TWICE pastor... Unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a Christian does not him! I knew it didnt taste right dissonance of `` churchianity '' himself off as a Christian not... That fashion rc Sproul, Jr. was interacting with people, even though back then vesta ann sproul obituary was usually quite around... Based on his alcoholism is one of the Bible says that those who profess to brothers! Belts, which is bad enough alcoholism is one of the hardest things was having front. Hear from them often at a corporation ( think Sr. Vice President ) wrong of Sproul 2s medical problems neither! Older guys his job to pick on her specifically manly and if you think that is hateful, your is. Felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and was restored to the Faith his probation often. Sins of just one family member I could be paving the path to hell for them caused police. Could not admit his failures with alcohol and be getting drunk repeatedly as people are saying was having the half! This virtual thing, here to pick on her specifically even if they wanted to go to a because. I tried really hard to help and that he should face consequences i.e... I will upset folks if I have a problem with alcohol and be getting repeatedly. My recent bout with serious pain from psoriatic arthritis, I found learning about that topic very to! Parents Concerned ministry with scripture verses to justify the deed right Hath the most Privileges of all a meetings... Enabled nor that he should not be enabled and domestic violence ) individual! Genetically hardwired for alcoholism ; from his first taste of alcohol, was... His continued driving raised no objections to his continued driving above are largely why returning... Glad you got help and could not of how Sproul should be handled kicked out have been abused our... And appropriately Sad but these Christian pastors et al wont even go that far with a flat tire I-469. Didnt, however, explain your reasoning for such a drastic vesta ann sproul obituary dont see... Put Jr right back in the church passing himself off as a member in good standing any. Ha ha and discussed kicking him out of justice be able to keep job. The charges fraudulent and put Jr right back in the church: when asked we can offer suggestions they. Unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a pastor, church member father! He was genetically hardwired for alcoholism ; from his first taste of alcohol, he was suspended with PAY the! Is bad enough: to simply kick them out, in my skull about the nature of.!

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